Will I Continue ITC Research After I Die?

I’m 67.

When I die, either I’ll be drawn to resume ITC research from the other side or I won’t.

If so, then I’ll do it conditionally. (Or at least at this point in life, I’d prefer to do it on a conditional basis. No telling if those conditions will be available once I get over there.)

The two conditions are these:

  • Condition 1: I get ethereal support… perhaps a finer being named Isar, whom The Seven ethereals told me is assigned to work with me in ITC research. (Read more about that connection to Isar on page 14 of Contact! Issue 9702)
  • Condition 2: Researchers on Earth are making a serious effort to sustain peace within themselves and harmony with each other, probably by working together through a website like the worlditcnet public site and the worlditcnet private site. Those are probably the only people on Earth I’d wish to try to make ITC contacts with… those whom I feel I could resonate with because they are doing the inner work necessary to be resonant… that is, making an effort to be peaceful, kind, sincere, respectful, and friendly.

Frankly, I’m fairly certain that it would be much more pleasant to forget about the egos and personalities and raging hormones here on Earth altogether, other than a few close friends and loved ones, and to rise to finer realms (the fourth and fifth levels), where bliss and rapture are a way of life.

But I suspect I have some kind of karmic duty to keep working with the earth for a while, probably in ITC. And that’s all done at the third level, where spiritual humans bear a close resemblance to the carnal humans they’d been on Earth. They look like us, think like we think, and behave much like we behave. ITC can only work because people on Earth and people at the third level happen to be a lot alike… they resonate with each other like antennas or radios tuned to compatible frequencies.

So, any interest I continue to have in ITC will center around the establishment of a refined bridge that sustains itself with those nobler attitudes I mentioned a moment ago… with researchers who make a sincere effort to polish up their rough edges in order to get along with each other… those who can move beyond their little ego dramas that drive us carnal humans to want to be smarter or better or more prolific or more powerful than anyone else. All I want is people who make a sincere effort to get along.

My plan, then, is to get settled in on the other side fairly soon after I die, and if ITC is in the cards for me, then I’ll start making contact with a few researchers, maybe with some sort of code word like…

  • WIN (WorldItcNet), or
  • RISE (Refinement, Initiation, and Self-Evaluation)…

… along with a personal comment to let them know it’s really me.

Then the work begins.

Anyway, no rush on all of that. I’m still in reasonable health and have plenty of good projects to keep me busy here in the golden years.

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About Mark Macy

Main interests are other-worldly matters (www.macyafterlife.com) and worldly matters (www.noblesavageworld.com)
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115 Responses to Will I Continue ITC Research After I Die?

  1. Nicola says:

    🙂

    The teams are managed (I believe) but I don’t know if the managers need to be ethereal now. I know the contact you mean. That which is sent by teams in the light rather than EVP sent by passers-by, lost (ghosts), malevolent (close), close family (love bonds).

    The teams in the light are only capable of refined or enhanced communication, but the receiver, earthside, has to be compatible, able and willing to serve. Otherwise their refined communication comes out as a garbled mess sounding no better than the average EVP. So my dear Mark, I believe if you want to continue, the miracles will be your team’s to send, but the recipient has to be right otherwise your voice will be a whisper just like grandpa joe’s.

    But once again, I respectfully insist teams this side are not needed and will cause more trouble than help with their egos and silliness. The teams are needed that side, not this. Witness INIT. There can be no earthside resonance because our egos won’t allow it.

    • Mark Macy says:

      Thanks Nicola, if and when I contact you some years from now, I already know what code words to use. 🙂

      Mark

      • Nicola says:

        That last post I wrote doesn’t sound right at all. Hmmm.
        Basic message is there though. I think I edited it so much as I was writing it, it sounds odd.
        Aren’t you supposed to give me the code words privately before the event?! 😀

        • Mark Macy says:

          Hi Nicola, I’ve been deliberating about that, revisiting some of the contacts INIT received from Timestream spirit group. As far as I can recall, all of the code words and evidential conditions of the contacts were devised by the spirit group and came as a pleasant surprise to the INIT members here on Earth. In one case, when we were getting some troubling contacts from negative spirit impostors, Timestream came up with the code word “Silmarillion” (title of JRR Tolkien’s first book) as a code word they would start using when they contacted us in the future. I doubt if any of the INIT members had even heard of the word before. I didn’t even know how to pronounce it until Konstantin Raudive contacted me by phone and said the word. (sil-MARE-illion)

          When they sent pictures of Anne de Guigne at the same time through the TV of Adolf Homes and the computer of Maggy Fischbach, I doubt if any INIT members knew of the French girl Anne de Guigne. But we could research her life. Same with the contact by Arthur Beckwith. I’m SURE none of us ever heard of that 19th-Century British America, but some serious digging turned up some interesting facts.

          I think Timestream had a playful side. They wanted ITC to be not just inspiring and informative but also fun for their friends on Earth. I think that’s the general mood or attitude over there on the third level that provides a fertile field for ITC. If researchers here are too intense about trying to prove something, or if they’re too academic or serious or clinical or nervous or skeptical in their efforts to get ITC contacts, then it becomes very difficult for our spirit friends to set up a bridge. The life energies don’t flow cleanly, or something like that.

          When people on Earth try to figure everything out in ITC (the way Houdini devised a contact code before he died), it doesn’t seem to work so well. Maybe it’s just that we on Earth can see and understand just a small piece of the bigger picture in ITC, and we need to leave a lot of the details up to the spirit group to figure out.

          Anyway, if I’m able (in Paul McCartney’s words: “many years from now”) to contact you through ITC from the other side, it’ll be in a way that’s fun and evidential. You’ll know it’s me. 🙂

          Mark

  2. angusmacro says:

    At 70 I’m older and in my younger years, when all this ‘spooks’ stuff was fresh and unfamiliar, I used to feel I had a (communications) purpose here and would have something equivalent after I passed over. Over the years I’ve begun to see things differently. Now feel that once I’ve lost my ties to this world perhaps like many/most other discarnates I’ll find little to attract me back to this dark, dreary and desperate place.

    Time will tell and one thing’s for certain – we don’t know (consciously) when our time will be.

    mac (aka angus)

    • Mark Macy says:

      Right, Mac, not sure about the timing… nor the specifics of what to expect. I guess the sky’s the limit.
      Mark

      • angusmacro says:

        Maybe the etheric level is the limit….?? lol

        I wonder exactly how we will actually feel when all this conjecture becomes reality and we find out (again?) what the actuality is? Perhaps we’ll know far more than we consciously understand here in the physical and find that what we experienced here was more-or-less what we came here to experience.

        I do hope so.

        • Mark Macy says:

          Somehow that feels right to me. Not the etheric level limit, but the other.

          • angusmacro says:

            thanks for that, Mark – I don’t feel such a freak now you’ve said that.

            Often I feel so out-of-step with others’ ideas it sometimes makes me want to withdraw from expressing myself – sometimes. But still I’m here and saying what I do…..

      • Nicola says:

        I think if we approach our end days naturally (even if this means an ‘unexpected or sudden’ death) we know deep down and our behaviour changes for no obvious reason. Like not booking vacations that were previously annual must-dos. I’ve read about this change in behaviour before, but this happened with my dad. He didn’t fall ill until a week before he died, yet nine months or so before he stopped looking ahead to the next vacation. No big fuss, just no interest.

        He had better places to go. 🙂

        • Mark Macy says:

          Now THAT’s interesting. Even if a person isn’t consciously or biologically aware of his approaching death until a week before it happens, he might be unconsciously or spiritually aware of it a year or so beforehand. Food for thought.

  3. John says:

    Thank you for this post mark. I enjoyed it as well as all of the comments.
    I have often thought that we are given the opportunity to continue on with some of our helpful life activities in the astral realms.

    • Mark Macy says:

      I agree John, especially when our life activities are wrapped up in our karmic purpose for this lifetime on Earth… you as a healer, me as a writer, for example. Mark

  4. kate says:

    Hopefully the evidence from ITC will penetrate through to mainstream and attract people that are right to form a group bridge because I think there are so many out there that just haven’t come accross ITC yet and the ammount of people interested is so small…it’s still early days in the grand scheme of things. I think your work, Mark, is so valuble in trying to help others achieve what it takes in forming a good working bridge….I recently watched the translated version of Marcello Bacci documentary on youtube only to find the information given to him and others was very profound and I didn’t realise Bacci was a medium prior to his radio service. Bacci takes no payment for what he does and his intentions are simple (to help others)…sometimes I wonder if we all overthink things…if the good contact comes then it does if not then it doesn’t and it’s not right.

    • kate says:

      I suppose it could be there is a perfectly orchestrated reason that the wrong people are in a group that disables contact with the afterlife for the rest of the group however annoying or sad that might be?

      • Nicola says:

        I suggested to Mark only a few weeks ago that perhaps it was a planned experiment, or it was allowed to run to teach us the effects of resonance and dissonance. But even only a few weeks later I think that it was supposed to succeed but our wilful selves destroyed INIT.

        The writing was on the wall all along with INIT, with warnings being issued and received about group members being incompatible with resonance. But I think once the member is in the group it’s too late. If the member is ousted he or she can still create a lot of dissonance from outside the group.

        Did I get that right Mark, that warnings were received?

        • Nicola says:

          *But even only a few weeks later I think that it was supposed to continue
          Not succeed. It succeeded!

        • Mark Macy says:

          Yes, Nicola, we were warned specifically about FEAR and DOUBT. I think those are probably two very basic human feelings that cause special problems in ITC. I don’t recall any warnings about particular members of INIT. The warnings I recall were more like gentle reminders to avoid fear and doubt.

          Mark

      • Mark Macy says:

        Hi Kate and Nicola,

        You’ve hit on something that’s been baffling me for a quarter century more than anything else in my life. Ever.

        Why couldn’t INIT members get along well enough with each other to sustain an ITC bridge longer than 5 years?

        If members developed irreconcilable differences, were those differences REALLY irreconcilable, or were they just quirks of the ego that could have been overcome through inner work so that the individuals could have resumed working together?

        If there are personality differences that make it really difficult for two people to work together, can they go their separate ways, with different ITC projects, PEACEFULLY, or will there inevitably be envy, resentment, and hard feelings?

        Is there a way to get over and through the hard feelings so that a stable ITC contact bridge can be restored and sustained?

        These are some of the questions and issues that have been driving me for the past 20 years or so. I’m hoping that my two “worlditcnet” websites might help to address that overall situation… at least provide a few ideas that could point researchers (hopefully) in the right direction at some point in the future.

        Mark

        • Nicola says:

          Have you ever held a grudge that won’t go? It’s possible you haven’t, in fact it does sound as if you aren’t capable. But when we talk dissonance, I think bitter grudges.

          It may be unfortunate experiences for me but I have met people who can hold grudges all their lives and no amount of ‘work’ will shift it, because they don want to do the work. A grudge can feel comforting. It’s a brick wall you put up against yourself and the one who is the recipient of the grudge. If you let the grudge go, you have torn down your wall, your protection and you are once again at the mercy of that person who you once perceived harmed you.

          I think the grudge holders are the majority in this type of work. Anything with ‘results’ causes competion. Anything less than the best will cause bitterness and bitterness causes resentment and resentment causes grudges. There will only be a few that can swallow disappointment and congratulate the ‘winner’.

          We could become philosophical and point out the winners are spirit and the bereaved but that is not how it would feel as you’re peering at your grainy ITC image while others flaunt their HD full colour video. You will ask yourself what you did wrong (there will surely be something lacking even if it’s aptitude beyond your control), then if nothing is obvious (but I’m a good person, I prayed, I’m humble), then comes the bitterness, the resentment, the grudge.

          • Mark Macy says:

            As I said before, Nicola, brilliant. You offer a raw, penetrating look at human nature.

            I have definitely held grudges. Still do. Back in the INIT days it involved a fellow who seemed determined to prove our results were a hoax. Today it’s US dark-triad politics. I definitely have my share of human weaknesses or shortcomings.

            Thanks, Mark

        • Kate says:

          I think five years is a long time for anything to stay consistantly the same because everything does change and so do relationships…for me that seems inevitable and a beautiful thing to realise because you can truly appreciate those wonderful times in the moment. I’m a believer in everything is about learning on school earth so, for me, it’s not surprising the group were challenged. If a marriage had irreconcilable differences would inner work keep the couple together happily? I don’t think so because people change for lots of reasons that aren’t controllable it could be losing a job, poor health, losing a loved one, new development of ideas and opinions……
          If someone is emotionally intelligent a personallity difference wouldn’t make any difference with seperating and being successfull in future projects…there would be eventual acceptance and moving onwards….respecting everyone changes and people have different opinions, working through the human feelings that aren’t so positve. I don’t think it’s inevitable there will be resentment, hard feelings, envy.
          Just like any relationship or marriage it’s possible to change, separate and then come back together as very good friends but the relationship would be different because the participants are differnt now.
          Just a few thoughts from me which are probably obvious and all been said before

          • Mark Macy says:

            Words of wisdom. No, those thoughts aren’t obvious to me at all. I’ve never been good at getting in and out of relationships, always enjoyed my alone-time. I’ve seen plenty of movies and TV shows about marital dramas, and I’ve been rereading your comment several times to try to grasp the reality of irreconcilable differences and inner work and going different directions in life… and Nicola’s description of long-held grudges.

            All very complicated to me… but it’s the part of human nature that I really need to try to understand. Thanks for the insights, Kate. Mark

    • angusmacro says:

      Bacci’s success when using a radio comes about because he’s a physical medium. Operating any of his radios without his involvement would result in just terrestrial broadcast frequencies reception.

      • Mark Macy says:

        Hi Mac, thanks for the important reminder. I sometimes think about getting to the other side and calling family and friends on Earth. And while I think that might be possible in a limited way (I’ve heard from various sources that there are already lots of phone booths and contact stations on the other side set up for the possibility of more open, routine communications with the Earth, no doubt facilitated by finer energies of ethereal beings), that the more stable, long-lasting communication bridges will probably have to be established with the life energies of a physical medium here on Earth, of someone with an innate ITC disposition. (The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that “physical mediumship” and “ITC disposition” are probably the same thing, or at least closely related personal skills that a small proportion of modern humans possess.)

        Mark

    • angusmacro says:

      quote: “Bacci takes no payment for what he does and his intentions are simple (to help others)…sometimes I wonder if we all overthink things…if the good contact comes then it does if not then it doesn’t and it’s not right.”

      Isn’t his approach the essence of all trustworthy evidential mediumship; providing hope that death isn’t the end of the story and evidence via mediumship that it’s the case?

      There are lucky (?) individuals who communicate with their loved ones without needing a medium to help them and, as I understand things, the development of an electronic device for ordinary folk like me to use is the aim of the ITC groups’ work.

      In mediumship many factors influence communication success but unless ITC can resolve such factors it would be seen as failing. Additionally ITC has to be able to guarantee that ONLY related / relevant discarnates make contact with the ordinary folk using it.

      If it can’t where would that leave vulnerable seekers?

      • Nicola says:

        The development of a device for everyday people to connect to their loved ones in the light has been fabricated and promoted by Earth-side organisations that are demanding public money in the form of donations, membership fees and bequeathals.
        This has never been, as far as I know, mentioned spirit-side. Far from it, because it seems, as has always been the case, the practitioner is key.
        You seem to be seeking? For someone in particular or proof of survival you can see and hold for yourself?
        While I dislike such things, if you are seeking proof of survival only, a spirit box, or spirit box app (some are free) will probably give you what you need. But they don’t reach into the light, as far as I can tell. More a CB than a satellite.

      • Mark Macy says:

        Hi Mac and Nicola,

        More key questions and issues regarding ITC. Here’s my current understanding of the situation, and I’m not 100 percent confident in its validity:

        ITC involves energies beyond the electromagnetic energies that we on Earth consider normal in our communication equipment. They could be called life energies or subtle energies or etheric energies or spiritual energies.

        I think they’re the same energies that ETs use when navigating their craft. When piloting a craft, the fellow’s intentions help to provide the craft’s direction through space and movement between dimensions. Those intentions are mixed up with or married to whatever electromagnetic energies are used to power the craft. It all becomes a field of life energy, and it requires a stable, focused mind to keep it all working right. If the UFO pilot had roller-coaster emotions like we earthly humans have, the craft would probably fly all over the place, out of control. 🙂

        ITC devices or systems someday (I’m fairly certain about this) will be used by human beings who have learned to find inner peace and stable thinking while using the equipment. It’s that stable mind that provides the stable contact field for ITC… I think.

        Mark

        • angusmacro says:

          quote: “ITC involves energies beyond the electromagnetic energies that we on Earth consider normal in our communication equipment. They could be called life energies or subtle energies or etheric energies or spiritual energies.

          I think they’re the same energies that ETs use when navigating their craft. When piloting a craft, the fellow’s intentions help to provide the craft’s direction through space and movement between dimensions. Those intentions are mixed up with or married to whatever electromagnetic energies are used to power the craft. It all becomes a field of life energy, and it requires a stable, focused mind to keep it all working right. If the UFO pilot had roller-coaster emotions like we earthly humans have, the craft would probably fly all over the place, out of control. 🙂

          ITC devices or systems someday (I’m fairly certain about this) will be used by human beings who have learned to find inner peace and stable thinking while using the equipment. It’s that stable mind that provides the stable contact field for ITC… I think.”

          This makes sense for me, Mark, but pushes away the likelihood of a wide-access electronic device that ordinary fol like me could use….. And your mention of using energies beyond those we know in this dimension raises a point I’ve made repeatedly elsewhere in terms of electronics based trans-dimensional communication, the compatibilty of our physical dimension’s scientific laws and those pertaining to the so-called etheric dimensions.

          If extraterrestrial travel and ITC require the focused and perhaps special spiritual (or life-energy) attributes of certain individuals/entities, I simply wonder how long – if ever – it will be before both ETs and ITC are experienced widely by us incarnates.

          Both situations would be potentially earth-shattering in their meaning and their effects. When, I wonder, will humankind be anywhere near sufficiently spiritually advanced to cope with such situations?

          • Nicola says:

            I’m pretty sure that it’s somewhere on this Bacci video https://youtube.com/watch?v=yn7a8hZRLWU

            The communicators explain that they are using the mesosphere (I think) to communicate with us. I’m sorry I can’t find the point at which this is said.

          • Mark Macy says:

            That’s interesting, Nicola.
            If we were in the kind of ITC group I imagine, then we’d be using a particular spirit world model or cosmology, like the Myers model. So we might ask that communicator, “Where is your mesosphere in relation to the third level of the Myers model?”

            He might answer: “The mesosphere is the same as the third level, which indicates a certain vibrational level of what you call the spirit worlds. It’s an entire spiritual universe, comparable to your material universe, but subtler. There are many inhabited worlds in our mesospheric universe, one being Marduk, or Eden. We live on another of those worlds.”

            Or he might answer: “There is no ‘third level.’ That is a foolish way to think about things. We have only the mesosphere.”

            Then our ITC group would have to digest this information and discuss it among the members. If we can fit the information into our existing model of the omniverse, or if we’d have to change our model completely, then there would have to be unanimous agreement to do so.

            If just one member feels uncomfortable with this new information and is unable to accept it, then we stick to our current model and forget about the mesosphere… and the spirit group can move on in search of a more amenable ITC group, while we resume our communications with our friends on the third level.

            I think that’s the kind of interdimensional dialog ITC groups of the future might expect to have.

            Mark

            oops… on second reading I see that you say the spirits USE our mesosphere to communicate with us, not that they LIVE in a mesosphere. My error. Still, some sort of dialog with the spirit group might provide more clarification about this ‘mesosphere’ and how they use it.

          • Mark Macy says:

            Mac, there are quite a few reports of grieving people getting phone calls from their late loved ones. The way I think that happens is, it requires a lot of energy and effort by ethereal beings to open up a bridge momentarily that will let those kinds of contacts happen. They probably see those situations as important preliminary steps toward ITC development in our world… sort of eye-opening experiences among us humans… well worth the immense energy and effort they expend to make them happen.

            And I think that the bridge that INIT enjoyed also involved a lot of energy and effort by ethereal beings to sustain, especially during the difficult periods. When everyone in the group was peaceful and enthusiastic and in awe, during the early years, I suspect it was less of an effort for the ethereal beings to hold the bridge open. It was more of a “natural” bridge, if I can use that term for interdimensional activities.

            But the various “spontaneous” phone calls and ITC contacts to normal folks probably do not create a practical situation for widespread, long-lasting ITC bridges in our world. For THOSE stable, lasting bridges… I think that is where there will be a requirement for humans working with stable minds and peaceful hearts, so that the ethereal beings don’t have to expend such vast energies holding things together.

            Mark

          • Nicola says:

            “pushes away the likelihood of a wide-access electronic device that ordinary fol like me could use”

            Mac, there will be no wide-access electronic device that can reach across dimensions into the light. You are free to doubt what I say, of course you are, but first think about your sources for the promised wide-access device. Are they reliable sources with firm connections to spirit, and have they received enhanced ITC contacts saying this is a good idea and is possible and will happen?

            The devices to prove survival already exist in spirit boxes. Before that it was spirit boards, before that it was voices from heaven in the sound of a waterfall. They have always been there.

            Not only are those devices never going to exist, but they would make life and the afterlife cheap if they did. Now that’s an abomination.

            If you need personal help, please contact me, and I will find someone to help assuming I cannot help you. 🙂

          • angusmacro says:

            quote: “Mac, there will be no wide-access electronic device that can reach across dimensions into the light. You are free to doubt what I say, of course you are, but first think about your sources for the promised wide-access device. Are they reliable sources with firm connections to spirit, and have they received enhanced ITC contacts saying this is a good idea and is possible and will happen?”

            That would be my stance too, Nicola, save for the promises of others about whose efforts and enthusiasm I work hard not to be dismissive. Additionally I’m not knowledgeable about such issues to the degree they are or should be…..

            quote: “The devices to prove survival already exist in spirit boxes. Before that it was spirit boards, before that it was voices from heaven in the sound of a waterfall. They have always been there.”

            I don’t need evidence of survival and there is no ‘proof’ of it anyway. At least not empirical, mathematical or scientific proof but there’s an ABUNDANCE of evidence. But, of course, we both know and understand that situation, don’t we, so it’s not an issue for meaningful discussion between us.

            quote: “Not only are those devices never going to exist, but they would make life and the afterlife cheap if they did. Now that’s an abomination.”

            I respect your right to hold that opinion, Nicola, but don’t agree with you.

            quote: “If you need personal help, please contact me, and I will find someone to help assuming I cannot help you.”

            Why, thank-you for that offer 🙂 but really I’m not looking for – and I don’t think I actually NEED – any personal help. My role – adopted or otherwise – is to observe and commentate on matter-spiritual. I look for anything different from what I already understand and then contemplate/meditate/seek guidance about whether it has virtue. if it does I’ll try to respond positively. If I don’t find that it does I try not to be too harsh or dismissive because I realise that others may not see things my way.

          • Mark Macy says:

            Long story short, Mac, I think a heaven-phone or ITC device for the masses or whatever one wants to call it… such a thing is impossible on Earth until humans have become a more stable, peaceful species.

            That’s not because there have been restrictions placed upon us by some super-advanced intergalactic race or by ethereal beings. Nothing that sinister or sci-fi.

            It’s just that an ITC bridge depends on a clear, stable contact field. And the contact field emerges from the thoughts and attitudes of the communicators at both ends of the bridge.

            i’m probably 99 percent sure of that, from what we learned from the INIT experience.

            Mark

          • angusmacro says:

            That being the case, Mark, it doesn’t seem likely there will be much more trans-dimensional communication in the future than there has been in the past. Disappointing but not surprising.

  5. John says:

    Excellent and tantalizing commentary.

    • Mark Macy says:

      I know. Mac, Nicola, and Kate really turned this into a magical Saturday for me… doing what I most love in life. (And Mac, I’m using “magical” just in the symbolic sense, suggesting “joyful” 🙂 )

      • angusmacro says:

        I’m glad you’ve enjoyed our expressing our thoughts and ideas, Mark, and I do understand your use of ‘magical’. 🙂

        ITC is an interesting subject and, as I think I’ve mentioned here before, I’d love to see more progress towards something different, something tangible, something definitive about trans-dimensional communication. Maybe I’m just not seeing what’s there?

        I hope I don’t come over as negative when I ask questions and challenge claims/suggestions. I’m always hoping that someone, some day, will come up with an answer very different from the ones I’ve heard before.

        Perhaps I need to be more patient but now I’m in my last quarter/fourth of my life here I’m running out of time. 😉

        • John says:

          Angusmacro,
          The answer to all of our curiosities and queries lies somewhere in the paradox and riddle of Shrodinger’s cat, which is explained a bit here in this piece of literary entanglement…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat
          Your comments are appreciated by all, no doubt.

          • angusmacro says:

            I very much doubt, John, that the answer to all our curiosities and queries is in any SINGLE location….;)

            Neither do I see Wikipedia as the font of all knowledge. It’s been known to have dubious contrbutions and contributors. About spiritual issues I’d be very wary.

            Thank you for your kind remarks on my comments. I do what I can. 🙂

        • Nicola says:

          What do you want to see or hear Mac? What is ‘progress’ to you? We have already had spirit and heaven on video. Photographs of qualities ranging from grainy to superb, phone calls from discarnates. Physical manifestations (Scole and many other physical mediums). There is nowhere else to go but THERE. There is no other proof that can be offered.

          You can even speak to ghosts yourself if you have a spirit box (I use ghosts to differentiate between those living in heaven and all other discarnates, including visitors from heaven and the lost).

          Quick Mark! Mac is gaining – he wants the moon on a stick too!!

          😉 😀

          • Kate says:

            Absolutely right Nicola.

            The Bacci documentary it was The Mesophere layer between the Ionosphere and exosphere. It makes me think when people look up to heaven they are actually looking in the right place when it comes to talking to the afterlife. (I wrote most of it down),

          • angusmacro says:

            quote: “What do you want to see or hear Mac? What is ‘progress’ to you?”

            What do I want to hear, Nicola, you ask? What is progress? It’s not for me anyway but what I was hoping for was that predictions made elsewhere (and the progress) would be towards an electronic device that would be available soon. (actually it had been suggested January this year but let’s leave that for now, eh?) And that ‘soon’ would be a reasonable amount of time. I define reasonable as within my lifetime – I don’t have to justify my definition, of course.

            quote: “We have already had spirit and heaven on video. Photographs of qualities ranging from grainy to superb, phone calls from discarnates. Physical manifestations (Scole and many other physical mediums). There is nowhere else to go but THERE. There is no other proof that can be offered.”

            wrong – There is always other evidence (let’s keep ‘prrof’ out of this discussion. should we?) that might persuade those who haven’t before been persuaded. Trying not to be prescriptive about what others may want is my approach. I lived through the NSSF (‘Scole’) days as I did the Noah’s Ark times too. I’m familiar with this stuff; It ain’t me who wants/needs to be persuaded about survival.

            quote: “You can even speak to ghosts yourself if you have a spirit box (I use ghosts to differentiate between those living in heaven and all other discarnates, including visitors from heaven and the lost).”

            I don’t see ghosts as you define ’em. They’re not anything whith which communication can be made. Discarnates are easy to define for me – they’re individuals/entities not living in this physical dimension – simple, eh? And I don’t want to speak to our unseen, discarnate friends and won’t have too long to wait before I can do it ‘in-the-flesh’ albeit that flesh will be very different than our own! All I’m really concerned about is misleading others who DO WANT / NEED to know their loved ones are not gone forever after their passing. When or if ever I can justifiably point them towards ITC rather than mediumship I’d like to offer them that direction.

            quote: “Quick Mark! Mac is gaining – he wants the moon on a stick too!!”

            Now you’re being just plain silly, Nicola…. I’m a seasoned, serious, experienced, knowledgeable observer/commentator on matters spiritual who wants nothing for himself, thank you.

            I’m ‘mac’, incidentally, and not ‘Mac’. 😉 Hence auto-capitalization needs de-activating if my username is at the start of a sentence and remembered for the times when it’s not. 😉

  6. angusmacro says:

    quote: “Mac, there are quite a few reports of grieving people getting phone calls from their late loved ones. The way I think that happens is, it requires a lot of energy and effort by ethereal beings to open up a bridge momentarily that will let those kinds of contacts happen. They probably see those situations as important preliminary steps toward ITC development in our world… sort of eye-opening experiences among us humans… well worth the immense energy and effort they expend to make them happen.”

    I agree with your first couple of sentences, Mark, and can only hope you’re right with the points in the last one. I wonder, though, if our unseen relatives and friends make such a major effort simply because they want their loved ones to experience some relief from their grief. It’s a nice notion that they may feel it’s part of a wider movement towards widespread ITC but I do wonder…..

    Time will tell, of course, but it may be well into the future before we – they, later generations – find out.

  7. angusmacro says:

    quote: “Mac, there will be no wide-access electronic device that can reach across dimensions into the light. You are free to doubt what I say, of course you are, but first think about your sources for the promised wide-access device. Are they reliable sources with firm connections to spirit, and have they received enhanced ITC contacts saying this is a good idea and is possible and will happen?”

    I have thought about these issues, Nicola, but I don’t know what you ask about….. I have to observe what others report, challenge what they say/claim, and evaluate their responses. It’s what I do here too. I don’t accept-without-question but I do try to allow that others may know way more than I.

    I don’t just assume they do know more yet neither do I dismiss their efforts because they haven’t provided me with acceptable evidence. Same as I do on this blog and elsewhere on the other websites where I’m a regular. I try to keep a number of irons in the fire and don’t listen to only one source of informarion – or possibly misinformation.

  8. Mark Macy says:

    Hi Nicola and Mac,

    This is TOTALLY uncharacteristic of me, but you two are so prolific and share so many good ideas lately, is there any chance I could have a chat with you each, individually? Preferably by Skype? If not that, then, by phone?

    Typically I don’t like face-to-face chats and MUCH prefer writing emails and texts, but I’d like to make an exception this time and really chat with each of you.

    If that’s okay I could try to Skype you sometime next week, whenever each of you has a few minutes free. I’ve only used Skype a couple of times before, but as I recall it isn’t too complicated.

    Please let me know if you’d be willing to chat by Skype. Thanks!

    Mark

    • angusmacro says:

      Would you email me please, Mark? I’m guessing you’ll have my contact details from the time of my registration.

    • Nicola says:

      Well from one camera-phobe to another, I’m happy to talk. I would have to download Skype, and of course, turn off the camera. 😎

      It would have to be individually though. Words here can take me a long time to post (even when chrome isn’t being awkward). I cannot risk getting into a debate with mac verbally because I cannot articulate well, verbally. Eventually this leads to anger, then frustration, then embarrassingly tears. I’m sure you can do without that. Awkward!

      • Nicola says:

        Frustration comes before anger. 🙄

        • Kate says:

          I completely understand this and the frustration. I can’t articulate in words or speech as much as I want to and as much as my understanding of things are…you have a great way with words I enjoy reading what you write. Book, book, book 🙂

      • Mark Macy says:

        Thanks Nicola, I’ll be in touch next week, first by email to set things up.

        I scotch-taped over my computer’s built-in camera long ago, so when i had to Skype last year I had to go out and buy a USB-connected camera. The computer’s lens had been gunked up by the scotch tape. 🙂

        Mark

      • angusmacro says:

        Then we share a similar difficulty even if the cause is different….

        I much prefer the written word for serious stuff. The filter of a keyboard and software improves the eventual result (however poor it still may be) and I greatly appreciate being able to review and edit my thoughts before sending them away although typos can still escape that process.

        The spoken word is a frustrating business because of a mismatch between input and output – I can’t always say what I wanted to!!

  9. Nicola says:

    It’s doing that nested reply thing again where my answer will be in the wrong place. This is an answer to Mac about the electronic device for wide-spread use.

    “That would be my stance too, Nicola, save for the promises of others about whose efforts and enthusiasm I work hard not to be dismissive. Additionally I’m not knowledgeable about such issues to the degree they are or should be…..”

    And

    “quote: “Not only are those devices never going to exist, but they would make life and the afterlife cheap if they did. Now that’s an abomination.”

    I respect your right to hold that opinion, Nicola, but don’t agree with you.”

    First I hope you understand and I want to stress, I am not being dismissive of the claim of an electronic device, I have given it some thought. My first reaction, while I was still at the stage of learning about ITC communication via Luxembourg to Time Stream, was how great if we could all contact heaven. I don’t think at that point I was aware that claims were being made that this would be possible. In fact I’m not even sure I was aware that this was being promoted in ITC circles as a possibility and an ongoing project till I read the article in the psychic news, what, a month ago?

    I also want to explain what I understand by ‘wide-spread’ use. To me this means as a throwaway item like a pay as you go mobile phone. So anybody can do it, literally anybody, with no vetting by anybody either spirit or earthside. This includes the worst of the worst. Murderers and paedophiles being able to taunt or stalk their victims in heaven. A device that circumnavigates all spiritual laws that keeps predators apart from prey once they leave the physical would be an abomination. This is why I say it can not be done and we shouldn’t wish for it to be done. Even the well meaning lover who has lost her husband could ‘drunk text’ and bring that soul misery and anguish at his partner’s suffering. There are smarter philosophers and social commentators than I in heaven. If I can see that then this would have been talked about, assuming such a device has even been discussed in spirit.

    As for the sources for the rumours of a wide-spread device, no Earth-side sources should be trusted implicitly, and many many spirit-side communications that are being received today are not coming from the light. The Earth-side may truly believe, but may be being deceived.

    To stand behind the idea (and I would have to understand why it’s a good one, whoever presented it – spirit or angels), I would have to see and hear it from spirit through enhanced ITC, either for myself, or through a trusted source. We are not so dissimilar in that way. In fact reading back what I have just said, I am probably more demanding than you, for I will not accept anything Earth-side about spiritual matters, particularly when it’s as potentially lethal as this.

    I see you’ve posted further down. I may have covered what you said here.

    • angusmacro says:

      quote: “It’s doing that nested reply thing again where my answer will be in the wrong place. This is an answer to Mac about the electronic device for wide-spread use.”

      Yes a blog isn’t an ideal place for a detailed interchange because of the blog format. I have to add ‘quote’ and speech marks to show the points I’m responding to – I’m not aware of any other way to achieve that…..

      “That would be my stance too, Nicola, save for the promises of others about whose efforts and enthusiasm I work hard not to be dismissive. Additionally I’m not knowledgeable about such issues to the degree they are or should be…..”

      And

      “quote: “Not only are those devices never going to exist, but they would make life and the afterlife cheap if they did. Now that’s an abomination.”

      I respect your right to hold that opinion, Nicola, but don’t agree with you.”

      quote: “First I hope you understand and I want to stress, I am not being dismissive of the claim of an electronic device, I have given it some thought. My first reaction, while I was still at the stage of learning about ITC communication via Luxembourg to Time Stream, was how great if we could all contact heaven. I don’t think at that point I was aware that claims were being made that this would be possible. In fact I’m not even sure I was aware that this was being promoted in ITC circles as a possibility and an ongoing project till I read the article in the psychic news, what, a month ago?”

      I’m new to the ITC issue and when I first heard claims for it I actually was sceptical if not downright dismissive. I’ve learned about it since then and am now trying to be open-minded on the subject yet remain objective and analytical.

      quote: “I also want to explain what I understand by ‘wide-spread’ use. To me this means as a throwaway item like a pay as you go mobile phone. So anybody can do it, literally anybody, with no vetting by anybody either spirit or earthside. This includes the worst of the worst. Murderers and paedophiles being able to taunt or stalk their victims in heaven. A device that circumnavigates all spiritual laws that keeps predators apart from prey once they leave the physical would be an abomination. This is why I say it can not be done and we shouldn’t wish for it to be done. Even the well meaning lover who has lost her husband could ‘drunk text’ and bring that soul misery and anguish at his partner’s suffering. There are smarter philosophers and social commentators than I in heaven. If I can see that then this would have been talked about, assuming such a device has even been discussed in spirit.”

      Very good points, Nicola, and I understand your concerns now. I hadn’t considered such aspects and based on your concerns I’d agree an electronic device without any moderation could be a dreadful thing.

      quote: “As for the sources for the rumours of a wide-spread device, no Earth-side sources should be trusted implicitly, and many many spirit-side communications that are being received today are not coming from the light. The Earth-side may truly believe, but may be being deceived.”

      This is why I remain an observer/analyst/commentator until I’m persuaded of the veracity of the claims I’ve heard, claims that come from individuals who appear motivated for the ‘right’ reasons. As I said earlier I don’t just accept-without-question even though I know from experience that challenges can ruffle feathers.

      quote: “To stand behind the idea (and I would have to understand why it’s a good one, whoever presented it – spirit or angels), I would have to see and hear it from spirit through enhanced ITC, either for myself, or through a trusted source. We are not so dissimilar in that way. In fact reading back what I have just said, I am probably more demanding than you, for I will not accept anything Earth-side about spiritual matters, particularly when it’s as potentially lethal as this.”

      I don’t know if one or the other of us is any more demanding but we both need reassurances appropriate for each of us individually…..

      quote: “I see you’ve posted further down. I may have covered what you said here.”

      Yes it’s quite frustrating writing in the ‘Comments’ section of someone’s personal blog when such a forum wasn’t ever intended for such use.

  10. Nicola says:

    I’ve now spent well over an hour trying to post, but my browser inexplicably crashes as I read back. Perhaps I’m not supposed to answer! So I will offer a bare bones post, one that I will not risk scrolling from as this seems to upset my browser. Sorry if I misremember or misquote anyone.

    I made a post earlier about the device ‘coming soon!’. To this I wanted to add some additional points.

    As our teams are aware of us, so are other discarnate individuals in their own light. These souls are good, very good, at deceiving mankind and live for the energies of disappointment, anger, ignorance and confusion. And they mimic. We are all very much influenced by these individuals. It is entirely possible these are the people making false promises and stroking earthside egos. Note, I am not saying this is the case, I am asking you to consider the possibility, and also consider the possible consequences of anybody at all being able to call heaven, as I stated above.

    There was originally so much more to this post, but I don’t remember it now. Probably just as well!

    Oh yes! Mac (an exception to your lower-case rule as you start a sentence). Why on Earth would you promote mediumship over ITC? Mental mediumship cannot be seen or heard with a recipients eyes or ears. It’s all a matter of trust.

    ?

    • Nicola says:

      Sigh.. now I see I said the same thing (in shorthand) above about negative influences. Sorry. I’ll get me coat….

    • angusmacro says:

      quote: “Oh yes! Mac (an exception to your lower-case rule as you start a sentence). Why on Earth would you promote mediumship over ITC? Mental mediumship cannot be seen or heard with a recipients eyes or ears. It’s all a matter of trust.”

      Are you asking me why I WOULD promote mediumship over ITC? I wouldn’t unless it were more reliable, gave more helpful results and could be trusted. Same would go for ITC. But I don’t promote either. I may suggest to a seeker that they consider whatever path I feel – based on what I’ve learned from them – might most benefit them…. That’s all. I have no axe to grind. Whatever gets you through the night…..

  11. Nicola says:

    I finally found the sentence that I read and remembered while unable to quote on the above post. You said “When or if ever I can justifiably point them towards ITC rather than mediumship I’d like to offer them that direction.”

    That made me ask why you would promote mediumship over ITC. That is fairly clear to me that if someone brought the subject of evidence up with you tomorrow, you would point them to a medium rather than ITC practitioners, because you cannot ‘justifiably point them towards ITC’. At least with ITC no trust is needed. Not to say ITC evidence cannot be false or faked. It can be and because we are using an electronic medium, that means the evidence is far less easy to dismiss and ultimately far more dangerous to our well-being if it’s come from somewhere other than our brothers-in-spirit. So your reservations about ITC are valid, even if the reason seems to be the evidence is not enough. It is (see below), but without serious guidance many people can be hurt by ITC. And I don’t know what we can do to moderate it. How can you argue against verbal or visual evidence that some practitioners will know has not come from the light (because they have been told that from people actually there). You cannot. It makes me weep. 😦 The only thing we can do is hope we can shine the light on the real evidence and send bogus evidence into the shadows. Bogus will still prove continuity but will cause misery and doubt, eventually.

    I’m wondering whether you have investigated outside of a small group of ITC practitioners whose results may be under-whelming. I know you know of Bacci, but consider him a physical medium. And Cardoso? Is she also a physical medium? Rinaldi? All of these people use a communication device, so are ITC practitioners, whether or not they are also mediums.

    Hold onto your hat. I think you will see progress in your lifetime, but progress won’t come the way you expect it.

    • angusmacro says:

      quote: “I finally found the sentence that I read and remembered while unable to quote on the above post. You said “When or if ever I can justifiably point them towards ITC rather than mediumship I’d like to offer them that direction.”

      But that doesn’t mean that I PROMOTE mediumship over ITC. It means simply that I’ve seen nothing that would lead me to suggest ITC rather than mediumship. One needs to be aware that I don’t promote mediumship but rather suggest that seekers might wish to consider it.

      quote: “That made me ask why you would promote mediumship over ITC. That is fairly clear to me that if someone brought the subject of evidence up with you tomorrow, you would point them to a medium rather than ITC practitioners, because you cannot ‘justifiably point them towards ITC’.”

      No and yes – I hope I’ve addressed your points in my response above.

      quote: “At least with ITC no trust is needed. Not to say ITC evidence cannot be false or faked. It can be and because we are using an electronic medium, that means the evidence is far less easy to dismiss and ultimately far more dangerous to our well-being if it’s come from somewhere other than our brothers-in-spirit.”

      agreed

      quote: Your reservations about ITC are valid, even if the reason seems to be the evidence is not enough.”

      I won’t claim that the evidence is insufficient but it’s not something about which I’m as persuaded as I am by traditional mediumship at its best and most evidential. That doesn’t preclude my eventually becoming persuaded of course. I strive to be open-minded yet not allowing garbage to fill its open nature. 😉

      quote: “It is (see below), but without serious guidance many people can be hurt by ITC. And I don’t know what we can do to moderate it. How can you argue against verbal or visual evidence that some practitioners will know has not come from the light (because they have been told that from people actually there). You cannot. It makes me weep. 😦 The only thing we can do is hope we can shine the light on the real evidence and send bogus evidence into the shadows. Bogus will still prove continuity but will cause misery and doubt, eventually.”

      Delivering elements of truth is what we all aspire to I think.

      quote: “I’m wondering whether you have investigated outside of a small group of ITC practitioners whose results may be under-whelming. I know you know of Bacci, but consider him a physical medium. And Cardoso? Is she also a physical medium? Rinaldi? All of these people use a communication device, so are ITC practitioners, whether or not they are also mediums.”

      No need to wonder. I haven’t researched all the individuals you mention.

      quote: “Hold onto your hat. I think you will see progress in your lifetime, but progress won’t come the way you expect it.”

      It’s not so much what I’M expecting as what others have told me to expect. They portray themselves as experts or at least as expert-researchers and I’m very definitely not in either of those categories. My present incarnate life is approaching its end, perhaps another couple of decades left, so I may not see much of any progress during my last few years, assuming I’ll have any interest or be in any fit state to remember what I know now – and that’s not much!

      Who knows what the situation will be next time I come here visiting but, of course, I might have said that the last time too… 😉

  12. Kate says:

    mac
    Quote: All I’m really concerned about is misleading others who DO WANT / NEED to know their loved ones are not gone forever after their passing. When or if ever I can justifiably point them towards ITC rather than mediumship I’d like to offer them that direction

    Quote: I’m new to the ITC issue and when I first heard claims for it I actually was sceptical if not downright dismissive. I’ve learned about it since then and am now trying to be open-minded on the subject yet remain objective and analytical.

    I’m interested to know what evidence led you to not being objective and analytical of mediumship?

    • angusmacro says:

      I don’t follow this question, Kate.

      • Kate says:

        Quote: I won’t claim that the evidence is insufficient but it’s not something about which I’m as persuaded as I am by traditional mediumship at its best and most evidential. That doesn’t preclude my eventually becoming persuaded of course. I strive to be open-minded yet not allowing garbage to fill its open nature. 😉

        So what persuades you to believe in traditional mediumship. What evidence..is that watching other mediums or taking part in it yourself?

        • angusmacro says:

          quote: “So what persuades you to believe in traditional mediumship. What evidence..is that watching other mediums or taking part in it yourself?”

          Bit of both plus a whole bunch more of researching and listening. BUT don’t get me wrong. I’m more-than-aware of how practitioners may portray their attributes as mediumship, or mistake them for being mediumship when they’re not. Done well it can be astounding. Done badly it’s a shabby charade.

          • Kate says:

            mac…I found there’s nothing like doing mediumship yourself to know it’s true or experiencing astounding evidence through readings or in my case it took both before my skeptism was quashed for good. like me it could well happen that you actually start getting things happen to you regardless if you want it to or not via electrical. If you had access to Marcello Bacci or a really good traditional medium..who would you chose? I’m asking you because I’ve found people around me who are believers in the afterlife find it hard to believe in the ITC evidence which I don’t understand, it will be revealing if you care to answer but understand if not. Thanks

          • angusmacro says:

            quote: “mac…I found there’s nothing like doing mediumship yourself to know it’s true or experiencing astounding evidence through readings or in my case it took both before my skeptism was quashed for good. like me it could well happen that you actually start getting things happen to you regardless if you want it to or not via electrical.”

            When someone has had what they needed to accept the notion of survival – let’s all not forget what this ‘spooks’ stuff is essentially about – then anything else is a bonus. Perhaps one thing has to precede the other for everything to work and our unseen friends bring that about on our behalf? I’m confident that can, and does, happen even though sadly not for everyone it seems.

            quote: “If you had access to Marcello Bacci or a really good traditional medium..who would you chose? I’m asking you because I’ve found people around me who are believers in the afterlife find it hard to believe in the ITC evidence which I don’t understand, it will be revealing if you care to answer but understand if not. Thanks”

            You’re probably asking the wrong guy. 🙂 Either would do for me (I’m guessing ‘cos I can’t know) because I don’t need persuasion about survival. No matter which for of communication I might choose that individual would get the same approach from me. If there was a communicator I’d need to know who it was because if I didn’t know, why would I take any notice of what was said? It wouldn’t matter to me whether it was ITC providing the communication channel or a flesh-and-blood evidential medium. The onus would be the same. Evidence about/from the communicator. And it would have to be solid evidence. Given that evidence either way would be fine and I wouldn’t be blown away by one rather than the other.

            As I said earlier, though, you’re probably asking the wrong guy. 😉

    • Kate says:

      I’ve just read the comment by Nicola and yourself AFTER asking you this question

      • angusmacro says:

        Does that mean you don’t now want to ask me anything? The blog response format makes it hard to follow who’s saying what and when to whom! 😉 🙂

      • Kate says:

        Thanks mac…I should have said…You have the two best communicators in ITC and traditional mediumship that could convey a message of great importance and you only have one choice, who would you choose? …I don’t expect an answer because I know that is a hard one. I guess you would choose what you know, at this point in time, which seems the traditional medium…I’ve heard well known traditional mediums say that spirit will use electrical devices to get your attention or let you know they are around you…usually things like flickering lights, things switching on and off, they also talk of other things like feathers and pennies, songs coming on that are relevent all of which most people that believe seem to accept yet ITC evidence does seem unbelievable to quite a lot.

        • angusmacro says:

          quote: ” Thanks mac…I should have said…You have the two best communicators in ITC and traditional mediumship that could convey a message of great importance and you only have one choice, who would you choose?”

          You’re right, Kate, that it’s an impossible one to answer with honesty – I simply don’t know but it might depend on which medium was ‘on offer’. The ITC practitioner shouldn’t matter as the individual doesn’t convey the message. Whoever conveyed such an apparently important matter would be far less important, though, than the message itself. Unless it met my standards it wouldn’t matter how it was delivered – I think…..

          quote: “I don’t expect an answer because I know that is a hard one. I guess you would choose what you know, at this point in time, which seems the traditional medium…I’ve heard well known traditional mediums say that spirit will use electrical devices to get your attention or let you know they are around you…usually things like flickering lights, things switching on and off, they also talk of other things like feathers and pennies, songs coming on that are relevent all of which most people that believe seem to accept yet ITC evidence does seem unbelievable to quite a lot.”

          It’s horses for courses. If unseen family and friends simply want to convey their presence, to let us know they’re alive and well, then they need to get a personal message through – whatever means they can use. Once symbols, apports etc. become recognised and are accepted as indicators of our loved ones attendance then there’s no real NEED for continuing to provide them – in my view. And once we KNOW that our loved ones are still alive and well, why should we want to continue a dialogue? I know that’s likely to be controversial or even inflammatory but the natural way of this world is that we get on with life with our incarnate companions – and not with the so-called dead.

          Other than for ‘special’ reasons (whatever they might be) why should discarnates be involving themselves in our lives in this physical world?

          • Nicola says:

            “The ITC practitioner shouldn’t matter as the individual doesn’t convey the message. ”

            But it does matter, in the same way as it matters with anything where we use a middle man. You have to be sure the connection is to the light only. If you agree there are darker forces and concede there may be mimics then you have to be selective with the practitioner. If anything you have to be more selective because the evidence can’t be forgotten about or dismissed so easily. Some practitioners will be talking to ‘teams’ of mimics and will have no idea they aren’t the real deal. And then you will get the guys who don’t care who they are talking to, like the fake mediums don’t care whether they are lying through their teeth. As long as they get paid right?

            I don’t know why you aren’t grasping this. Is it because it’s me saying this? I’m sure Mark understands what I’m trying to say and would agree. Perhaps Mark has different words to say the same thing. I doubt he would agree the middle man doesn’t matter.

          • angusmacro says:

            quote of mac’s words: ““The ITC practitioner shouldn’t matter as the individual doesn’t convey the message.”

            quoting Nicola’s response: “But it does matter, in the same way as it matters with anything where we use a middle man. You have to be sure the connection is to the light only. If you agree there are darker forces and concede there may be mimics then you have to be selective with the practitioner. If anything you have to be more selective because the evidence can’t be forgotten about or dismissed so easily. Some practitioners will be talking to ‘teams’ of mimics and will have no idea they aren’t the real deal. And then you will get the guys who don’t care who they are talking to, like the fake mediums don’t care whether they are lying through their teeth. As long as they get paid right?”

            Kate set the task parameters. We have to assume authentic connections for both practitioners or all bets are off. It was only about traditional mediumship versus ITC to convey an important message. No-one knowledgeable would go to a quack, a psychic, channeler or whatever if she/he wanted mediumship. Unless I’ve misunderstood things, ITC isn’t mediumship, the word ‘instrumental’ being an indicator. BUT if it still requires (quote) a middle man then my concerns concerning ITC seem well founded.

            quote: “I don’t know why you aren’t grasping this. Is it because it’s me saying this? I’m sure Mark understands what I’m trying to say and would agree. Perhaps Mark has different words to say the same thing. I doubt he would agree the middle man doesn’t matter.”

            I could say just the same about you, Nicola, but I don’t and I wouldn’t because it’s impolite and demeaning to say such things in that way. Mark will, of course, speak for himself and should he disagree well then that’s just fine and dandy but it wouldn’t change my perspective unless it was explained in a way that persuaded me I was wrong to think the way I do.

            Please remember that NOBODY browbeats mac into submission but genuinely knowledgeable individuals have changed my view by their wise counsel.

          • Kate says:

            I’ve tried to be very specific and direct with the question…thank you for your response. Needing and knowing isn’t part of what I was asking. I’m more interested in why people who believe in the afterlife stuggle with ITC evidence.

          • angusmacro says:

            I can’t answer your question, Kate, because it would need to be put to the ones it involves. If I’ve failed to make myself clear then I apologise but I did try to address your point(s) to the best of my limited ability.

        • Kate says:

          quote: Kate set the task parameters. We have to assume authentic connections for both practitioners or all bets are off. It was only about traditional mediumship versus ITC to convey an important message. No-one knowledgeable would go to a quack, a psychic, channeler or whatever if she/he wanted mediumship. Unless I’ve misunderstood things, ITC isn’t mediumship, the word ‘instrumental’ being an indicator. BUT if it still requires (quote) a middle man then my concerns concerning ITC seem well founded.

          I think this is very much the same sort of response I had with some people on A famous college Facebook. My answer is right there thanks and i respect your response mac.

          • Kate says:

            Thanks mac I’ve only just seen your response. You make everyone think and that can only be a good thing.

          • angusmacro says:

            again, thank you. 🙂

          • angusmacro says:

            thank you, too 🙂

          • Mark Macy says:

            Hi Kate, a bit earlier in the dialog you say that one of your main questions here is “why people who believe in the afterlife stuggle with ITC evidence.”

            I think the reason is the “boggle factor,” little more than that. We all have our own understanding of how the world works. Our carnal mind tries to polish, tune, and update that mental model constantly as new information comes in. But if the information is so radical that it would mean destroying the model or totally recreating it, then the mind becomes boggled and snaps shut. It won’t accept the new information.

            I think that might be the reason. Does it make sense to you, or am I off base on this?

            Mark

          • Kate says:

            Hi Mark thanks for that about the ‘boggle factor’ ..that tickled my chuckle muscle the words boggle factor but seriously what you have said does make sense. If I take part in ITC or not I will be as active as I can, in my little way, advocating ITC so understanding how poeple feel/react is important. I think the traditional medium style is a valuable service and training but ITC could work alongside or together with mutual respect as the new or alternative mediumship ITCM (instrumental transcommunication mediumship)….I doubt this will happen to soon but can hope because there are some wonderful, disciplined people in these spiritual circles that want to serve and feel passionate….I know what I’ve said is making a lot of assumptions like ITC operators are conduits/mediums and or people with the right intention (I believe so but could change my mind), . I’m going to have to work out ways to talk about the ITC without to much boggle factor lol 🙂 because I’ve crassly rocked a few boats in the past. A great blog, everyone being a cog that drives the wheel of understanding and knowledge.

          • angusmacro says:

            I’m not touting for business or trying to poach contributors from Mark’s blog. (contributing on one website doesn’t preclude writing on others, I do it routinely)

            But to more broadly discuss / debate / explore the complex issues surrounding communication, be they concerning ITC or mediumship, there are websites where it can be done more efficaciously than ‘tacked on’ to a blog. A blog, after all, is a personal web log in which its readers may be invited to respond to the blogger’s thoughts/ideas/comments.

            A forum-based website is much more suited to back-and-forth comments.

          • Nicola says:

            That’s the second thread where you “haven’t touted for business .. but..”.
            Were you aware of that?

          • angusmacro says:

            No, Nicola, I wasn’t aware and I will repeat I’m not touting for business – I don’t have a website anyway.

            My point is that proper, structured discussions can be held more effectively on a forums-based website. I’m perfectly comfortable writing here, though, as well as writing elsewhere, something I do routinely on various websites.

            You may remember that I encouraged Mark to consider having just a discussion place as he already has part of the structure in existence.

          • Kate says:

            Mark it’s just hit me like a tonne of bricks…The boggle factor happened to me when I saw all your stuff on YouTube….I don’t know how I could forget this because it took me a couple of days to get my head around hearing the messages from spirit. Your right it did make my mind boggle and more.

          • Kate says:

            mac… I like slow and clunky with no abillity to edit and delete. It slows people down. Comments do have a habit of naturally unfolding in different directions. I don’t think any of us expect Mark to respond..it’s amazing he does.

          • angusmacro says:

            Then that’s absolutely fine. Whatever works for whomever it works. I expect nothing of anyone else but enjoy hearing from anyone who chooses to air her/his views.

          • Mark Macy says:

            I agree fully that this “comments” format here has serious drawbacks for open, free-ranging dialog. And I’m 100 percent in favor of people expressing their views far and wide, in as many chatrooms as appeal to them.

            I also think that the moderated nature here can have some advantages. I’ve seen lots of open forums (especially on political issues here in the States) where people unleash short, vicious messages of hate at each other. That situation can be controlled in this format by screening both communicators and their messages. Granted, this is more practical on a lightly read blog like this one… not so practical when tens of thousands of people are trying to get their two cents in.

            That’s why I went back through the worlditcnet websites to advocate an ITC group set up at least two kinds of forums, one kind that’s free-wheeling and another kind that’s more controlled. Thanks to mac for that idea.

            I feel privileged and grateful for those of you who share your opinions and ideas here, and if I knew some of the other sites where you post or comments I’d probably enjoy visiting those sites from time to time to enjoy those dialogs too.

            Mark

  13. angusmacro says:

    general question: Are there emoticons somewhere or are you guys doing what I’m doing by using the keyboard symbols to activate one? Will BB code work on this blog – anyone tried?

  14. angusmacro says:

    I wonder if Mark can activate the code so we can quote, format and edit text etc. Mark is that possible?

    • Mark Macy says:

      I’ll do some checking

      • angusmacro says:

        I don’t want to ‘hog your blog’ but it would be handy when wanting to specify exactly what point anyone is referring to or wanting to emphasise a word etc.

        • Mark Macy says:

          For basic editing you can use some html codes… with the < and </ symbols.

          Examples:

          (em)this line will come out italic(/em)
          (strong)this line will come out boldface(/strong)

          but replace the parentheses () with the less than/greater than signs

          You could do the same thing with “li” for lists if you know html coding.
          But that is all getting out of the realm of dialoguing and into the realm of coding… probalby more trouble than it’s worth.

          The real solution would be a wordpress upgrade… or moving to something other than wordpress.

          Mark

          • angusmacro says:

            Yeah I’d fiddled about with the bits of the coding I could just about follow but it’s not easy and probably isn’t worth much effort. There are more ways to skin a cat than one and we can manage well enough. 😉

    • Mark Macy says:

      If I upgrade to a better version (wordpress.org), apparently I can download plug-ins like “Simple Comment Editing” or “Ajax Edit Comments” that would let readers edit their own comments. But that’s not a possibility on basic wordpress.com sites. Here’s what I found about basic wordpress.com websites like this one:

      Can I edit comments I left on someone else’s blog?
      No. It is not possible to edit or delete any comments you have left on other WordPress.com blogs. Blog owners are in full control of the comments on their blogs, so you can try contacting the blog owner and ask them to edit or delete a comment for you. If the blog owner has not posted any contact information, you can try leaving a short comment asking how to contact them directly.

      Sorry about that, folks. For the time being, this is how it is. I’ve been thinking about consolidating some of my various blogs (worlditc.org, spiritfaces.com, worlditcnet, macyafterlife, noblesavageworld) onto a single site that has all the bells and whistles, and would still cost less than having all of these scattered blogs. Major job, that. So I’m still just thinking about it.

      Mark

      • angusmacro says:

        Thanks for taking a look, Mark. But this is your blog and not somewhere to just discuss ‘stuff’ between ourselves – that’s where a forum-structured website comes into its own. We must make the best of what we enjoy and we should be thankful we can do it on your dollar – I’m appreciative for one. 🙂

  15. Nicola says:

    Mark, please let my post above through. 🙂

    • Nicola says:

      It’s ok, I will post without the links.. from a few hours ago:

      “I haven’t researched all the individuals you mention.”

      It is essential to know about these people, still working. You aren’t anywhere near informed enough to judge ITC without learning about them.

      “But that doesn’t mean that I PROMOTE mediumship over ITC. It means simply that I’ve seen nothing that would lead me to suggest ITC rather than mediumship. One needs to be aware that I don’t promote mediumship but rather suggest that seekers might wish to consider it.”

      Again it’s the pedantic use of words. Promote is the correct word to use. Suggesting that seekers might wish to consider mediumship, while not leading them to ITC, means you have promoted (raised one above the other) mediumship over ITC. I am not suggesting you are wearing a tshirt or a hat saying you love mediumship. Not that sort of promote.

      “It’s not so much what I’M expecting as what others have told me to expect. They portray themselves as experts or at least as expert-researchers”

      Beware of anybody portraying themselves as experts in ITC. The only experts are spirit (and even they make mistakes). Do you remember ever seeing an interview with Bacci where he is anything less than genuinely humble, thankful and abashed? This is where the ‘magic’ is earthside. This is all we can offer, genuine ground crawling humility and thanks. The bigger the ego grows the flimsier the connection to the light and love. And that’s where the darker ones come in with promises and lies.

      • angusmacro says:

        quote: ““I haven’t researched all the individuals you mention.”

        It is essential to know about these people, still working. You aren’t anywhere near informed enough to judge ITC without learning about them.”

        I don’t JUDGE ITC and I have readily admitted I don’t know them. But there are other ways to gain impressions and even information and I reserve the right to approach matters in a way that’s right for me and to reach whatever conclusions I choose, should I choose.

        quoting mac: “But that doesn’t mean that I PROMOTE mediumship over ITC. It means simply that I’ve seen nothing that would lead me to suggest ITC rather than mediumship. One needs to be aware that I don’t promote mediumship but rather suggest that seekers might wish to consider it.”

        Now I’m quoting Nicola: “Again it’s the pedantic use of words. Promote is the correct word to use. ”

        You are perfectly entitled to your view and to express it but I reject what you contend and will express myself exactly as I choose to. I use words to express myself even if you consider it pedantic and don’t approve. 😉

        quote: “Suggesting that seekers might wish to consider mediumship, while not leading them to ITC, means you have promoted (raised one above the other) mediumship over ITC. I am not suggesting you are wearing a tshirt or a hat saying you love mediumship. Not that sort of promote.”

        as above

        quoting mac here: “It’s not so much what I’M expecting as what others have told me to expect. They portray themselves as experts or at least as expert-researchers”

        quote: “Beware of anybody portraying themselves as experts in ITC.”

        Caveat emptor on all matters. 😉 I am wary of anyone professing to know more than I until they’ve demonstrated to my satisfaction that they do. Then they gain my respect and my attention.

        quote: “The only experts are spirit (and even they make mistakes).”

        You may find this pedantic also but I did also refer to those individuals as “expert -researchers”. And of course anyone can goof, even our etheric co-operators. They’re not omnipotent or omniscient simply because they’re discarnate.

        quote: “Do you remember ever seeing an interview with Bacci where he is anything less than genuinely humble, thankful and abashed? This is where the ‘magic’ is earthside. This is all we can offer, genuine ground crawling humility and thanks. The bigger the ego grows the flimsier the connection to the light and love. And that’s where the darker ones come in with promises and lies.”

        I get the feeling you’ve now clambered on your high horse and are lecturing me, Nicola. I’m not a dumbo, not a beginner. Please don’t talk down to me. We are equal as seekers of light and understanding so let’s behave as such, should we?

  16. Nicola says:

    Then, mac, you behave as my equal, not my superior. Do not believe you know all because you have been around a while and spoken to so-called experts about ITC. If your objective is to find the truth, don’t act as if you have already found it. You are defending the notion of a device because.. why? Because these are your friends? Because you’ve known them longer? Because you do not like my style? Because I am not famous and have not written books? Are you that shallow?

    You can use whatever words you like, but you cannot assign new meanings to them. Promote means to put one thing above another and that’s what you do with mediumship over ITC. The pedancy was mine, correcting your incorrect perception of what promote means. Like miracles.

    Sigh. I give up. Incarnates are such hard work.

    • angusmacro says:

      quote: “Then, mac, you behave as my equal, not my superior. Do not believe you know all because you have been around a while and spoken to so-called experts about ITC. If your objective is to find the truth, don’t act as if you have already found it. You are defending the notion of a device because.. why? Because these are your friends? Because you’ve known them longer? Because you do not like my style? Because I am not famous and have not written books? Are you that shallow?”

      I must make an assumption that we are – in the words of one way more learned than I – somewhat separated by a common language. No matter how I strive to express myself I fail. Mea culpa and I apologise for my weakness It’s only I who is to blame for that failure. You should carry full responsibility for your assumptions, however, when they are based on your failure to ‘listen’.

      quote: “You can use whatever words you like, but you cannot assign new meanings to them.”

      Yet again, Nicola, you are wrong in your understanding…..

      Language is dynamic. The way it’s used constantly changes. I may assign any meaning I choose to any word I choose and you mayn’t try to forbid me or anyone else from doing that. I hope it’s plain I’m not so foolish as to do that with all the words I use but those with specific connotation may be understood differently by others. That doesn’t make me wrong. Language is my slave and not my master but perhaps you would wish it were otherwise? Isn’t that the realm of the pedant?

      quote: “Promote means to put one thing above another and that’s what you do with mediumship over ITC. The pedancy was mine, correcting your incorrect perception of what promote means. Like miracles.”

      Climb down from that horse please, Nicola, and join us ordinary folk on the ground.

      quote: “Sigh. I give up. Incarnates are such hard work.”

      Indeed they are but we are forced in this world to live with them unless we become hermit like and withdraw. That’s not for me and I will continue to try my best to communicate even with those who would try to constrain my freedom. 😉

  17. angusmacro says:

    I sense that there’s no desire – quite the opposite – to adopt a different pattern for the interchange of ideas. OK, I hear you. It was only a suggestion for your consideration. I’ll say no more.

    • Kate says:

      mac…personally i just accept what is on offer and see the positve side. You’ve put the point over a few times and that’s it…move on. I don’t want you to go, I sincerely don’t. You contribute a lot.

  18. angusmacro says:

    Mark I apologise if I’ve over-stepped the mark with my suggestions for the consideration of contributors to your blog here. I detect resentment of my ideas and as I expect that’s likely to remain the case I’m going to leave to avoid any difficulties.

    • Mark Macy says:

      Hi mac, I’ll copy here what I replied earlier, a moment ago, since it’s an important point (imo), and it’s come up a lot in the comments section of several recent articles:

      I agree fully that this “comments” format here has serious drawbacks for open, free-ranging dialog. And I’m 100 percent in favor of people expressing their views far and wide, in as many chatrooms as appeal to them.

      I also think that the moderated nature here can have some advantages. I’ve seen lots of open forums (especially on political issues here in the States) where people unleash short, vicious messages of hate at each other. That situation can be controlled in this format by screening both communicators and their messages. Granted, this is more practical on a lightly read blog like this one… not so practical when tens of thousands of people are trying to get their two cents in.

      That’s why I went back through the worlditcnet websites to advocate an ITC group set up at least two kinds of forums, one kind that’s free-wheeling and another kind that’s more controlled. Thanks to mac for that idea.

      I feel privileged and grateful for those of you who share your opinions and ideas here, and if I knew some of the other sites where you post or comments I’d probably enjoy visiting those sites from time to time to enjoy those dialogs too.

      Mark

      • Mark Macy says:

        Even if things get a little “heated” here, as long as people open themselves up so that we see who they are and what their experience is and why they believe the way they believe, then I think the dialog can be healing in the long run.

        Laying cards on the table is important, and the freedom to move on is also important… as is the freedom to return at a later date if so inclined. 🙂

        Again, I think one big advantage of a worlditcnet framework for an ITC group would be the three types of members:

          Facilitators try to hold things together and sort of manage the overall workings of the group and do the administrative work… try to keep things on an even keel. They have learned certain important management skills.

          Operatives get involved in projects and committees and work with each other through chatrooms and other means. They aren’t just experimenters, but anyone who has skills that can support the group’s purpose and mission.

          Provisionals are temporarily offline from the group, maybe because they’re newcomers who are learning about the group, or maybe because they need a break for a while, or maybe because of interpersonal differences between two or three members that are causing dissonance in the group. While in Provisional status they only have access to their personal workspace for inner work. Once they’ve gotten through those situations, they’re boosted to Operative status and have full access to the chatrooms, committees, ITC projects, etc. Or, if they prefer, they can move on to another group where they feel more compatible

        I think it could work well.

        Mark

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